Carlie: Hey there it’s Carlie with the Expat Focus Podcast.
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Today’s guest, Jess Drucker, has made a career out of helping LGBTQ+ people and their families move abroad. In fact, she’s created the world’s first and only, global relocation resource for this expat community, called Rainbow Relocation.
Jess is a seasoned expat herself, and we chat about some of the additional practical elements that come into play when you’re queer and moving to a new country.
From choosing places that are safe, where marriage and children will be legally recognized, where you’ll be able to thrive in your career, and find your community.
Jess, shout out to the Adventure Calls Podcast. I love speaking to fellow podcasters. Welcome to the Expat Focus Podcast.
Jess: Thank you. Thank you for having me. So excited to be here.
Carlie: I’m running through all of the titles you have on your website because I find them so impressive. You’re the founder of the Adventure Calls media and consulting business. You’re an editor of a global relocation guide, host of the Adventure Calls Podcast and author of a book on how to move abroad and why it’s the best thing you’ll do. And you also have an expat group on Facebook, which we also love. So, amazing.
Jess: Thank you. Yeah, I feel like that sounds like I’m bragging or something. So, thank you for bringing that up. I’m also the founder of Rainbow Relocation now, which is making it all official that I’m working now, let’s say exclusively working now with LGBTQ expats and their families.
Carlie: Tell me, how did you get here? Tell me a bit about your journey to everything you’re doing today.
Jess: Yeah. I mean, so I lived abroad myself for 15 years, and so I’m making that, of course, my whole personality because that’s what I did for so long. I studied abroad in Costa Rica and I was from the Midwest in the United States and I had never even thought about living anywhere, but, you know, I had this opportunity to study abroad in Costa Rica during college and it was just like, are people doing this every day? Like, this could be a way of living.
I couldn’t get over how different it was and how vibrant it was. And I was hooked, obviously, like probably a lot of your listeners are. So I lived in Costa Rica for a year, went to Guatemala on a trip and thought, “Oh my gosh, people are living like this!”
And I thought, “I have to move here.” My best friend and I, who I met in Costa Rica were just like, “We’re going to move here now, you know?” So I lived in Guatemala for two years, met my girlfriend, who then I moved to Germany with her and I lived in Germany for three years, moved to the UK, I lived there for four years, I lived in Brighton and in London, and then I went full-time and became a digital nomad and I did that for about four years, as well.
So all in about 15 years of living abroad. And then, long story short, which we can get in to or not, I ended up back in the US for the first time as a grown up, you know, really as an adult, and, you know, all of my professional connections were overseas and pretty much all of my experience was overseas. And so then repatriating was quite, and still is to be honest, quite a challenge, but it was something that I always wanted to do was to help other people do what I did, especially Americans who it’s just, you know, I would do anything to get as many of us abroad as possible really to get that global experience.
So that’s sort of how I ended up doing this. And then, a little bit about how I got into just working with LGBTQ expats. I just, first of all, I don’t find another person who’s focussing on this space. And I feel like every bit of content out there for the most part is usually always focused on straight couples who fit a very specific mould and I think that comes from a traditional sort of corporate, expat model which has traditionally been a husband and his wife relocating with their kids and I think that’s the content that was out there for a long time.
But as we know, obviously everyone is relocating, whether it’s corporate or self-initiated. So, I decided to focus on that niche and once I did, it probably has been like the most satisfactory work that I’ve done in the consulting and strategizing side of this.
Carlie: I have so many follow up questions.
Jess: Great.
Carlie: First of all, acknowledgement as a cis woman, myself, absolutely, I feel like even I am guilty on this podcast sometimes of focusing too much on that traditional, you know, couple, husband and wife with a couple of kids kind of set up and what resources would help them or the solo foreigner heading abroad without really considering the nuances. But I’m curious, which country did you like the most of the places that you lived in?
Jess: Oh boy. What are you doing? It’s like picking which child you love the most.
Carlie: You mentioned Germany, Costa Rica, Guatemala, UK. I’m like, oh gosh.
Jess: Yeah. That’s a great question. So, realistically, I think, all in if it was just the countries that I lived in, so I also was nomadic and spent like three or four months in places, but that’s a little bit of a different experience, right? I think Germany surprisingly is where I really felt the most comfortable for a variety of reasons. I spoke no German when I moved there and I knew nothing. I mean, I did not even understand East versus West Germany.
And when I lived there, it was 2003. So the Wall had recently come down and I knew nothing. But I think because I had to really fight to become fluent in German because I really integrated, I lived in the former East Germany, so integration was really necessary. It’s not like I was in Berlin or Frankfurt where there was like a large international community.
That allowed me to integrate in a way that I don’t think I did anywhere else. And so for that reason, and also just quality of life, I think I really enjoyed living in Germany the most. It was also very difficult. There are a lot of challenges in that, like having no idea what’s going on is difficult. But I think that was probably where I felt the most integrated.
And then just in terms of where I lived for shorter amounts of time, I absolutely loved living in Mexico and Argentina. Those two really stand out for me as just feeling really alive living in those places.
Carlie: They sound like very vibrant places to live.
Jess: Yeah, definitely. I also speak Spanish. So it’s like a lot, well, that was a lot easier than…
Carlie: Oh, so much easier. I’m so jealous of people with multiple languages. I struggle enough with French, but I accepted a long time ago I’ll just be learning it for the rest of my life and that’s how it is.
Jess: Yeah, we all are. Absolutely. Yeah.
Carlie: I think once I accepted that it wasn’t actually going to be an end point, it made it that bit easier.
Jess: Totally, totally.
Carlie: I am curious: what makes the decision to move to a different country potentially more complex for someone from the LGBTQ+ community?
Jess: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, as any type of minority, when you’re moving, if you’re a minority in your home country and you’re moving to a place where you’ll also be that minority, and of course, for LGBTQ people, there’s no, you know, LGBTQ nation, it’s definitely something to consider at all times.
I think, one: you have to look at, if you’re moving, so this is really something that I talk about a lot, but if you’re moving as an individual, and you’re someone who can ‘pass’ in your daily life as just kind of, people assume that you’re cis, people assume that you’re straight, people assume these things about you, it’s a little bit easier to just because you’re not worried about violence against you just walking down a street, for example.
But if you’re not someone who can pass, if you present in a very queer way, or in my case now that I have kids, there is no hiding or passing or however you want to talk about it; we are clearly a lesbian couple with two kids so you have to always be out and open no matter what because you have your family and of course, you would never hide in front of your kids. You would never lie. You want them to be proud as well.
You need to find places that are safe for you to be fully out and recognized. So, a lot of my clients dream of living on a Caribbean island, for example. Well, a lot of Caribbean countries are very homophobic. They have laws that legislate against you, or they have a culture that would be very open to violence against you.
And so, you have to really balance the lifestyle that you’re looking for or the reasons that you’re moving with places where you can also be very safe. And that venn diagram in the middle of places, it does make it very limited compared to where other couples may move. Some of the adventure of it can get taken out because you can’t just move to a place like Dubai or Oman or places that lots of people are excited about living in.
Everybody’s talking about Saudi now, right? But we’re not moving there. That’s off the list. And so those are things to consider. I mean, primarily safety first and foremost, and then legally recognizing. So for example, your marriage: can you both move? How do you both get to the country with what visa? Can you be recognized as a married couple or do you both have to qualify? So all of those things are issues to consider.
Carlie: And I guess it’s also how much you’re willing to compromise for the experience, as well.
Jess: Yeah, and that’s absolutely right. I think a lot of people come to me and they’ve read lists, right? So like, the top 20, top 50 countries that are safe. And they’re like, “Well, this one’s 18 and this one’s 24. So I should move here.” And it’s like, well, those lists that you see, and they’re wonderful resources, it’s not like that. It’s like, yes, one may be safer or less safe in terms of legality, but there’s also the social and cultural acceptance. And those can be wildly different actually in certain places. So yeah, it’s kind of just like, where can you live a fully articulated life?
Carlie: I don’t know if there is data out there on the number of queer people abroad compared to not queer people. But do you know if it’s less common in general for LGBTQ+ people to decide to live outside of their passport country?
Jess: Oh, that’s a great question. I should be collecting that data and perhaps I will. That sounds like something I should run a survey on. I don’t have data. I can make a couple of assumptions. One: I think whenever you have a glass ceiling or some sort of cultural limitation, I think that people just tend to even look past those opportunities. And so, I do corporate consulting as well and I’ll talk to corporations about their LGBTQ expats.
And a lot of time what they realise is that there are a lot of queer folks at their company who don’t even know that these opportunities exist within the organisation, because they’re traditionally been reserved for, for example, a person who has already relocated once, they’re tapped to relocate again, it’s called shoulder tapping.
And so oftentimes that was a straight man and his straight wife who were able to relocate because it was an opportunity in Dubai and then next time they get that next opportunity. So I think the community almost holds itself back through lack of awareness, lack of knowledge, lack of, you know, if you come from people who have never moved abroad, you don’t have any idea that that’s something you can do. So I’m assuming that the number of queer folks who live abroad is less than, let’s say not queer folks or cis hetero folks. Yeah.
Carlie: Can you speak to some of your own experiences in different countries?
Jess: As a queer person?
Carlie: Yes, as a queer person.
Jess: Yes, I think, you know, like I said, there was a time in my life where I could definitely pass, and so I did. You know, you live sort of a more quiet life, I suppose. And also I think everything relates to a time and a place too, because a lot of the time I spent living abroad was also a long time ago when Ellen [Degeneres] was the only queer person on TV or something, so like there wasn’t representation generally speaking.
But in Guatemala, for example, it was definitely something that I kept very quiet. I was a teacher and I taught in English, but all the subjects and I taught fourth and fifth grade. And it was a mix of mostly Guatemalan students, but also some foreigners that would also go there whose parents lived there.
And the Guatemalans were so touchy, you know, they’re very tactile people and always hugging and the kids are so great and they’re always like sitting on your lap. But I was always just a little bit nervous because if they were to find out that I was gay and that I had a girlfriend at home and I was hugging their daughter, I was always so afraid of what they would think.
Carlie: They misconstrue.
Jess: Correct, and I’m working with kids and it was always sort of in the back of my mind. And then I lived in Antigua in Guatemala, which is basically a small town, essentially. And what if I would see the parents out on a Saturday night and we’re all having a good time and then it’s like, “Oh God, what if they find out?”
So it was definitely sort of like keeping two lives very separate and really worrying about how that would reflect with me working with kids and kind of a motivator for me to leave after a while because it’s like, “What am I supposed to do here? I can’t do this.” And even in Germany, you know, I lived in Erfurt, which is in the former East Germany and there wasn’t a huge community. And I wasn’t closeted but I didn’t speak the language. And so I kept things quiet because I didn’t know how people would react.
I think now, many years later, I might have been able to connect with more communities and groups online or know what’s going on a little bit more. But I did definitely keep things quiet. I think the difference now is that you can do so much research and make so many connections even before you move, but also while you’re there, there’s a group of people in Portugal literally called Queer Women in Portugal, and it’s like, what a specific niche, but then you’ve found your people, right? So, I think that’s very different nowadays is your ability to connect with those communities.
Carlie: I’d like to speak about some of the practical elements on top of the usual practical considerations that come with moving abroad. When you’re talking to your clients, beyond getting a bank account, finding a place to live, finding a school for your kids, what are some of the things that you’re advising them to consider and to investigate?
Jess: Yeah. I mean, so, I call what I do really a relocation strategy, right? Because there is a strategic element to choosing, you know, first, where you’re able to move to, like we talked about, right? So, is this country even safe for you? And unfortunately, do you understand what the laws are? That’s a fact.
So, obviously, if you are choosing to move for a corporate position, for example, there are often employees who are often totally on their own with this. Whether they’re out at work or not, HR is often not equipped to understand these things, and they don’t have a true policy in place to say things like, what happens if I’m discriminated against because I’m LGBTQ? What if my safety is at risk and all that stuff.
So it’s really like, this is what it’s like there. What are the laws? Do you understand your rights? Which is something I think as expats we can normally otherwise just look past. You just assume, great, you know, you just think it’s the same or you don’t really think about it. So that’s number one obviously, and choosing a place where you feel that you can be as open as possible, that’s first.
And the other thing is, and then what lifestyle are you looking for in order to find which countries might work the best for you? If you have the choice, if you’re self-initiated, for example, and you’re deciding where you’re going, you have to balance where am I accepted the most in what ways and then how does that match with where I want to live?
For example, like I said, a lot of people want to live an inexpensive life on a beach. Sounds great. However: Bali? Indonesia? Not queer-friendly. A lot of the Caribbean where people want to move: not queer-friendly. Even some of Central America: not queer friendly.
So it’s like, where can you find that cool beach lifestyle that you’re looking for, for example, and inexpensive, but also where it’s LGBTQ-friendly. So those things are what you consider first of all.
And then it’s about recognition. If you’re moving with your family or you’re moving with your spouse already, can you open a joint bank account? Can you get visas together? Can you be recognized together? And how will you guarantee that you can both stay for the same amount of time? How can you match your lives up? Because a lot of times in certain places, you’re literally going on your own visas.
So somebody could get rejected or they could get rejected two years down the line when you’re renewing that visa. And so, whereas a straight couple might not have to consider those things because their marriage is recognized, an LGBTQ couple does.
Then I think, you know, like we talked about with schools and stuff, there are just those added elements. So, say you’re finding schools for your kids. Well, are there other gay parents at that school? And what is the culture around that at the school? And those are hard to find out. It’s hard to dig that deep in another language or with other expat families who might not have ever looked at it from that lens, you know? So even when you’re just doing those things. You have to really do some digging and use your spidey senses as a queer person so you could just sense it.
Real estate: same thing. What neighbourhood are you moving to? Not just like is it the right kind of neighbourhood that you want to live in, but also, are you going to feel comfortable as a queer couple or a queer person there? Are you going to be safe? So all of those things are, it’s like you still have to deal with all of the same aspects, but there’s that extra element, the layer that you have to really look into. And you do have to take it seriously because you can have a wonderful time when you move, but you do need to be that much more educated about it.
Carlie: You mentioned if a queer couple has kids, does it also come down to custody issues as well when it comes to moving abroad with children? Like if both parents are actually recognized as parents and would have the same rights in that country?
Jess: Yeah, and what’s so crazy about it all is that you may just have wanted to go do a thing, have an adventure, you know as we say, whatever, and then all of a sudden you’re some kind of precedent setter because it hasn’t been dealt with before. But yes, it does have to do with custody issues. You know, are you both on the birth certificate?
Are you both listed as the parents? Is that recognized? And then there’s been an issue recently in Italy, even for Italians where second parents on birth certificates, if it’s a queer couple, if it’s two moms, the non-bio mom or the non-biological parent is being taken off the birth certificate and losing custody of their children. And so there are queer Italians who are leaving for Spain and other countries because they’re not literally not recognized. And if the other parents should pass away, for example, they have absolutely no rights to their own child.
So yes, it’s really important to understand all of those things and what’s going on. But unfortunately, you have to do a lot of inferring; if you really need to get into the nitty gritty, you have to do a lot of inferring and that’s where, you know, we kind of hold hands together and figure it out sometimes, because you are sort of setting a precedent in certain countries that haven’t dealt with that.
Carlie: And I guess in some countries, while legally parents or queer people may not be recognized, it might be very different on the ground. I know I follow a couple who are from Norway and they got married, I believe in Thailand, and said everyone was really lovely to them there. But if you dig into laws in Thailand, would you actually consider that a queer-friendly country?
Jess: Yeah, that’s absolutely right. And that’s what I was saying before about if a country’s ranked 12th and the other one is 30th, and they’re 12th because there’s the legal recognition, but 30th is also super great, you know, it’s like, yes, it’s totally about the culture and the social aspect of it just as much. And, you know, it’s like when you have kids, you have to be hyper aware of everything anyway. And so as a queer couple with kids, there are all these technical things that you need to think about in a way that non-parents don’t. If you’re a couple, and you don’t have kids, as long as there’s a social acceptance to LGBTQ folks, you’re going to have a fine experience most of the time.
Carlie: I’m curious about professional opportunities abroad and just being, I suppose, open about your queerness at work and how you see that has evolved. I know at my company, for example, my day job, they’re looking actively to inject more diversity in the company. And if we had more hires who were people of colour, who were openly queer, that would be fully embraced, for example. Are you seeing things change when it comes to employment opportunities? Are companies being open about encouraging people to apply if they do fit certain identity boxes, or is it still a little bit difficult?
Jess: Yeah. I think the answer is yes and no, because yes, you know, you see at the bottom of many job ads in Western countries that say, if you are a woman who only fits five out of 10 of these, please still apply because we know that women will only apply if we fit 100% of the qualifications when of course a man will apply if they fit half. So, you definitely see an openness to showing minorities that you’re open to all of that through different means. So yes.
But that’s if you are being hired just, for example, by a Western company who shows the same values as you might have, right? But you also have to understand the nuances of being relocated even within that organisation to different countries, right? But then, you know, obviously, if you’re working for a global organisation that has relocation opportunities in countries that are much less favourable for LGBTQ people, that comes with a whole host of issues, but you’re also then losing out on these opportunities that could be career-defining or just life-defining because you don’t apply for those relocation opportunities, for example.
But, you know, there’s a client that I had, and they were non-binary, leader, definitely-hands in sort of a factory situation. But there were a couple of opportunities abroad in countries that were not LGBTQ-friendly, and that person would have to be on the floor with traditionally men, working on machines. Were they going to take that opportunity? Were they going to put themselves in that position?
And then if they did, because it’s a wonderful opportunity and it would have been awesome to move and live there and do all of that, that was something they were looking forward to, how would the company have their back over the employees who may or may not have, it doesn’t even have to be slurs or violence, it can just be not listening to this person as a leader because they’re non-binary or trans. And so, without articulating that fully in the policy and the procedures of moving that person, how can they know how the company will support them when they move and take on a role like that?
So, you know, yes, I think generally speaking, there’s more openness to diversity. But until that’s articulated in policies in a really transparent way, it still is a limitation for folks.
Carlie: Such a good point. Yeah, I think workplaces have more to do with being really clear and actually standing by their policies when incidents do happen or when people don’t feel supported.
Jess: Well, and to be fair, that’s something to say for companies who, this may be me going on a little bit of a rant, but companies who have all of these DEI inclusions and considerations and perhaps even a head of diversity in the organisation, but then they go and open a plant, for example, in a very homophobic country. You’re basically saying, well, we want that for us, but then when we want our materials made, that’s not important for us at all, right?. And it’s not even just the policies, it’s the company party line all the way through being articulated. So there’s a lot of work left to be done.
Carlie: Jess, you spoke about some of these queer-friendly country lists. I’m going to put you on the spot and ask you what countries do you think, in your opinion, are the most queer-friendly versus those that you would never advise your clients?
Jess: Yeah, okay. So, there are quite a few, obviously, LGBTQ-friendly countries. These are sort of top lists. So, you know, number one varies between Canada and Scandinavian countries. Most of Western Europe is included. I think Italy actually fell out of the top 20 because of these recent policies. But a lot of Western European and Central European countries are also included in those. My own opinion would be to think about this in two ways.
So, the technically most friendly LGBTQ countries are Canada, Scandinavia, Germany, and then I would also say Mexico, Argentina, Thailand is if you’re looking to move to Asia, quite queer-friendly. I mean, they have a third gender established, there’s more openness to that. And, yeah, I mean, I think that’s probably the most. I could look at the list, I suppose, and get you what they say.
But, I mean, that’s the challenge therein, though, is that if you’re a self-initiated expat, most of those countries that I just named are the hardest to get any types of visas to. Canada is notoriously difficult, Scandinavia is actually quite difficult to get visas to relocate there. So that’s sort of one of the challenges is that those top countries to move to are also sometimes more difficult and have difficult stipulations to get the visas to relocate there.
You can look up all of the countries that are not safe. I mean, I think there are obviously a lot of countries in the Middle East. Many African nations are very unfriendly. There are places where you can still be put to death for that. And if you look, there’s a wonderful resource called Equal Decks, like index, so Equal Decks, and on there you can see through many different graphics based on a lot of different categories. So, in terms of legality, in terms of punishment, in terms of, gay marriage rights, you can really filter through and see which countries are the safest, but then also the most dangerous. But I think really, most of the Middle East and lots of countries in Africa can be on your list of no-gos.
Carlie: So, once you’ve made your move, you’ve got your information in order, you’ve taken that leap, how do you go about finding community in your new home?
Jess: Yeah, so this is something really interesting actually, and the thing about looking at this only through an LGBTQ lens is you’re really lumping a bunch of people together, right? You know, the L’s and the G’s are very different, you know, what lesbian women, for example, and gay men want is completely different a lot of the time.
Carlie: I recently joined my local roller derby club and it has been an eye opener into the incredibly broad spectrum of this community and I’m educating myself every week on something new.
Jess: Yeah, absolutely. And so it’s really difficult to say how you go about finding community because not even just each letter, you know, LGBTQ+ has different needs and wants, but also, even within that, I would identify as a lesbian, but I’m also married and have two kids. So for me, community is probably going to be wherever my kids are going to school and then filtered through who’s great for me in that perspective.
But I mean, it really is wonderful how many groups and how specific they are that you can find out there. There are ways to connect with queer folks everywhere. So of course you can go on Facebook and that’s the only reason I ever go on Facebook is for those groups, but you can go on Facebook and find those groups and they’re very specific.
Carlie: It’s a great place for your own group to exist, as well. As much as I get tired of Facebook, sometimes they do have such a great array of communities.
Jess: Yeah, absolutely. And so I have obviously a Facebook group I should probably plug at this point called Queer Expats, and so obviously that’s for queer expats. And that’s a great place to go, especially for folks who are just starting out and have questions. We have a balance between current expats and future expats. So there are a lot of questions that can be answered by the community there. But yeah, like I said with Queer Women and friends in Portugal, right? Like, a very specific subset of people that you can find.
I would also really recommend reaching out to and connecting through the local LGBTQ centres that exist in many places. Of course, those don’t exist in countries that are less friendly, but connecting through your local centre is a great way to connect with the local community. And I think that’s really important because I think we all know expats stay within their expat bubbles a lot of the time. Queer expats staying within a queer expat bubble is also common.
Carlie: We’re getting very niche.
Jess: Yeah, but it’s common, you know? So it’s important to join local events and learn what the local community really needs. Because something else that often happens, especially when Western expats move to, take, for example, Asia this happens often in Japan, not obviously China’s a little bit of a different story.
I’ve heard about an issue, I was recently speaking with a thought leader from Hong Kong who said that you have these really well-off, well-to-do queer expats who are based in Hong Kong, and they join the Pride groups. But then when they decide to become activists, which is great, they shift the power to themselves. Why? Because they start speaking in English. And now the whole group has to speak in English because they’re a part of the group. Whereas if they weren’t, they would be speaking in the local language, right?
And from an activist perspective, there are actually, there are issues that are totally irrelevant for locals that Westerners sort of put on to their group as, like, what we should be talking about or fighting for or whatever. And so, understanding the needs of local queer people is actually really important if you plan to integrate and stay in that community for a longer period of time.
So, understanding your point of privilege, power, and you might not even really realise that if you’re a part of it and you speak English, now that dynamic becomes you’re the native speaker in this situation, everyone else has to conform to your language, for example. So there are all kinds of things to consider, but I think getting involved in the local community is also really important.
Carlie: Needs to be an equal exchange of ideas and experiences.
Jess: Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Carlie: Jess, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for your time.
Jess: Yeah, that’s great. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
Carlie: And where can people find you and how’s best to connect with you if they’d like to get in touch and learn more about your services?
Jess: Yeah, absolutely. So right now I’m shifting everything over to rainbowrelo.com. Hopefully by the time this is out, almost everything is over there. So that’s rainbowrelo.com. Of course, I am also relaunching the Adventure Calls Podcast to specifically focus on LGBTQ folks, and then of course, if you are looking for a community or a group on Facebook, I have the Queer Expats group.
Carlie: Excellent. Thank you again.
Jess: Yeah. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much.
Carlie: That’s it for today. As always, if there is a topic that you would love to hear covered on the podcast, let us know on social media. We are Expat Focus. Don’t forget to like, subscribe, follow, however you like to listen, and I’ll catch you next time.